I do wish we were more public sometimes around what we do to the economy as I think it would draw a totally new type of player in. Then the paranoia kicks in. Ah well.

Yeah but an industry rewamp would still be a good opportunity to get rid of these T2 BPOs...

I think I hear DUST calling for your help.

Being serious now, tl;dr:

Old system made sense in that the scale was a curve in regards to how much further research was worth.

New system is flat and each level is worth pretty much the same before it (in effect). You are actually simply adding waste to things that were pretty much done being researched.

Ie, .1% waste under current becomes 1%. Its annoying and more than a little ****** on your end.

All I'm really saying is that I think you had another really bad idea and should've left well enough alone.

Exactly.
CCP should search for items where T2 BPOs dominate market and rebalance the items, so people actually use them. No need to touch prints at all.

Can we please also get increased max runs on capitals like Orca and Freighters ?

Now I can make jobs for a month with 6 orcas or 2 freighters. (more on pos) It is much more clicking and flying arround if I have to produce from one run BPCs.

Oh and are you saying my ME 12 Charon BPO will be perfect after patch ? saving me the remaining research time ? great!

This is dangerous and no safe for future developments, you should make stable changes that makes sense in the long run. I would rather see a something big, like dropping the bomb and removing t2 BPOs to make industry more fun for more people.

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.

Yes it can impact the market.

Advanced Mobile Laboratory x0.65 of copy speed

Perhaps some people will put their T2 BPOs in POSes. That is risk, and may result in it being destroyed. T2 BPOs are worth a bit of a hunt.

They will have to copy at a NPC station to reduce the risk, which means that the copy speed limits their production.

It is evident you haven't understood how ME will work in the new system.

It would make no difference to the barrier to entry as can be seen in the posts below.

Way to put apples and oranges together.

One thing is how the stuff will be implemented (complex or simple) another is how to deal with current BPOs.

It was not an act of idiocy to have very pristine BPOs for those who were strong in the BPC copies markets.

I have all ME500+ capital component BPOs and other BPOs have taken 2 years to research to be the best of all on the market.

This was a long term investment, we had no "preadvice" our investments would be worth zero " :because: ".

How CCP will deal with this (in a simple or complex manner) is not related with the simple fact that people invested in stuff for a result and now the result is being deleted.

The issue here may be that the scaling gets a little out of hand at the high end: I'm not sure there's any gameplay benefit to having research times measured in decades for anything in-game. I think you should look at adjusting the curves or times for the high-end bpos (basically capital and above) if you want to fix this sort of problem.

2. Players who have highly researched BPOs will get their current BPOs value better reflected after the change.

If I remember correctly, you mentioned that you were a code architect -- I may have misread.

What do you mean by saving copying as a profession? Everyone will be using copies! Even the ones who own the BPOs will use BPCs.

In addition to thinking the best feature is how people are being screwed over, the sumary of your argument for the current release is insults.

With ME research now actually topping out (and assuming I understand Seith Kali correctly), blueprint copy sellers could have two new avenues of competition to pursue:
TE polishing (still a quality competition) and copy speed research (a quantity competition).

really, all people need to do is ask themselves, do I believe the guy who says "The complexity of ME research did not come from understanding 10% * 1/2, 10% * 1/3, 10% * 1/4... " (a formula I'm sure 99% of people reading this thread do not know) actually is advocating for newbies who might be confused when they don't get 5% off when their one small rig build doesn't give them back .8 of an armor plate but who will intuitively understand and love...that forumula?

Now that I've written up some code for the new world, I've run into this as well. This rounding waste in the case of a Jaguar adds up to somewhere around 700,000 isk for a build from components. Given the profit from that build would be about 2 million, that's significant.

Math doesn't lie. It cannot be embellished with grandiose statements of importance. This patch is broken on arrival. That's just a fact from even a casual look at the numbers.

LHA dissected the proposed changes brilliantly and illustrated how ridiculous the "new numbers" will be in practice. He did so without personal attacks, slandering anyone, or bringing into question their intellect to even post in this thread. I hope you two are getting ready for the thread lock again.

I've paid for my time, and since I'm not playing EVE Online do to cloaky camper, I'm choosing to use the time I've paid for to play EVE Offline.

6. If BPO compensation is given then compensate the right thing. Compensate the cost advantage (e.g. 0.00258%) they would loose not the time (e.g. 2+ weeks) they thought it was worth.

Comparing ME 10 to ME 50, it's a .706% savings. If you're building an Abaddon, that works out to ~1.5m ISK / hull at current mineral prices. Plenty of folks build battleships by the dozens. If you're making 20 hulls per day, a 25m / day cost advantage over your competition is worth spending extra research time. Stop pulling numbers from the +ªther, get your spreadsheets out and look at how much isk a .7% cost advantage translates to when the true scale of production is taken into account, and you'll understand why many, many BPOs in this game are researched past ME 10.

Am I right in assuming, right now, any BPO researched past ME 10 and PE 10 will effectively be treated as a "perfect" BPO post patch? They would instantly become perfect Stage10, 10% ME and 20% TE reduction BPOs?

Does it mean right now, If i want to buy a BPO I should look for ME/PE 10 ones so they instantly become perfect BPOs post patch?

So my ME:100 and PE:75 Stabber BPO essentially becomes ME/TE 10?

Some people have a life outside EVE. They log in for a couple hours, a couple times a week. They are not really interested in the hassles that come from being in a mega alliance.

Think about the number of accounts vs. the online numbers. 300K accounts and 20K online. 6.7% online at any given time? That is a lot of casual players.

Pre-change, even the casual player could compete. Buy a BPO and research it to perfect, or close enough.

Put up a mineral buy order in a trade hub, come back days later to see it filled. Move the minerals a couple jumps and put in a build job, come back days later to see it completed. Move the items a couple jumps to trade hub, put up a sell oder, and wait for days for people to buy your stuff.

This sort of casual player is a HUGE chunk of CCP's revenue, and this industry overhaul destroys them.

There was no special advantage to being part of a mega alliance.

Minimum price is going to be set by hardcore null bears and mega alliances that control the teams. If you're not one of those, you will not be able to obtain minimum production price which sets market, and therefore, will not be able to manufacture at a profit.

I get that the mega alliances like these changes that squeeze the casual players out of the game. I'm just not sure it is such a great thing for CCP, or the game, or the casual players that being in the bulk of CCP's revenue.
With these industrial changes, blob warfare comes to manufacturing..

A big corp, with 1000 industrial players, with 3 accounts each, 3 toons each, 9 jobs each = 81,000 concurrent jobs, all with instant start. And with unlimited lines, hypothetically, all 81K concurrent jobs could be running from a single small POS, in a system with no station services, that has been loaded up with all the best teams.

Manufacturing: The largest run price we generated from the snapshot we took was 15% of build cost in Saisio. 10th place is Juunigaishi at 8%, while 50th is Kakakela at 5%. Jita is in 106th place, at 4%.

How much extra cost a specialized team demands depends on the overall efficiency of the team. The extra salary is a percentage that comes on top of the normal salary cost. The percentage can range from +2% to +18%.

Another thing to think about - if we mess with the invention math so we can kick max run counts up without breaking a bunch of things (including making sure we scale job time correctly against output runs), does the potentially large increase in practical invention throughput risk breaking the market? If you could put in 24 hours' worth of invention in one go, are we going to see a destructive glut of T2 BPC supply?

Yeah, I think we would have to do that. Probably if we went down this road we would define invention time per-run.

Pretty much this. We are unhappy with the status quo, but we are not sure what changes we are going to make right now.

I think I love you so what am I so afraid of?